Wednesday, December 26, 2007

Pro-choice or pro-abortion?

In response to my post Freedom to choose I received the following note of protest:

"Don't assume pro-choice=pro-abortion. Pro-choice is about giving women the option, but they must always have the final choice. Coerced abortion goes against everything the pro-choice movement stands for. Pro-life and pro-choice are very much united on this front."

Indeed, why am I so inclined against the pro-choice movement? I'm completely and wholeheartedly pro-life, but can't I at least agree with those who are pro-choice on the issue that we both have the woman's best interests in mind?

No. And I'll tell you why: because I will never be convinced, in the circumstances surrounding the overwhelming majority of abortions, that it can somehow contribute to the woman's physical or emotional well-being.

I will never understand how a woman can benefit from someone killing her own child. I know that now someone will probably ask me, 'but what if the mother's life is in danger?' – and I will accept it as a theoretical argument, but practically, of all women I know who had abortions, no one did it because her life was in danger. They did it under pressure of difficult financial, emotional or social complications, and almost all of them told me they felt they had no other option. There goes the famous 'freedom of choice'.

When I compare the abortion industry and the Holocaust, I'm often accused of being melodramatic and playing on people's emotions, yet I think the similarity between the two is striking: massive, cold-hearted, legalized, organized, justified with false theories ('they aren't really people') and hushed up murder of human beings someone declared as 'unwanted' and 'less worthy'.

Still, it might seem that between giving a woman the possibility to have an abortion, and convincing her to have an abortion, the road is long. However, when abortion becomes easily obtained and acceptable, when its significance is diminished and brushed aside, when its moral and psychological devastating consequences aren't emphasized enough – all for the sake of 'free choice' – it becomes only too easy for those who are interested to coerce a woman into having an unwanted abortion.

And if she resists the pressure, it makes a great excuse for irresponsible boyfriends or husbands: 'well, you could get rid of it so easily, so why didn't you? It's not my fault now'; and even 'you have no right to force this child on me'. When abortion is common, when it's viewed as an insignificant procedure with no long-lasting consequences, it's a frighteningly quick process from 'it's your choice' to 'it's what's best for everyone' to 'you have no other option'.

66 comments:

Terry said...

I know a few people who have had abortions as well and not one of them had a life threatening reason for aborting their babies. I agree with you wholeheartedly. And while I am no fan of birth control, I do belive that the variety and availablity of birth control in civilized countries makes abortion even more heinous. Any woman can choose, before conception, not to become a mother. I'm sure many will respond by saying; "what if contraceptives fail?" My experience has been when used consistently and correctly, contraception rarely fails. But there's always adoption. Because of our society's tendency to delay starting families, many couples are finding themselves unable to conceive easily because of their advanced age. They would love to adopt these "unwanted" babies. Of course, since I believe that God is the author of life, that's reason enough for me to be against abortion for any reason.

PhDCow said...

I am pro-choice because here in the US, there's a very slippery slope. If the Supreme Court were to overturn Roe v. Wade, there's worry that the next thing to go would be women's access to birth control and health services.

I recently had a pregnancy scare. Because of the medications that I'm on, were I to become pregnant, the best option would be to terminate the pregnancy. While I waited those three minutes for the pregnancy test results, I realized that terminating the pregnancy, even if there was significant harm to the fetus, was something I couldn't do.

So, personally, I am against abortion. But as far as I'm concerned, each woman should be afforded the opportunity to make that choice for herself.

As a believer in karma and reincarnation, I'm a firm believer that each of us will have to answer for what we've done in this life.

Mrs. Opper said...

Bravo, Anna! I do so enjoy reading your blog. Your strength of character, G-dly virtue and eloquence are a treasure.
Keep up the excellent work.
Blessings to you,
Denise Opper

Karen said...

This is what I don't get. People who claim that if we don't allow abortion for all 9 months of pregnancy (the current law here) then women who have a life and death decision won't be able to choose abortion, or we will take all birth control away, or women will be forced to be "just housewives". So extreme! WE don't think that way about other laws! The "slippery slope" argument is a logical fallacy, yet they keep on using it.

Sarahndipity said...

However, when abortion becomes easily obtained and acceptable, when its significance is diminished and brushed aside, when its moral and psychological devastating consequences aren't emphasized enough – all for the sake of 'free choice' – it becomes only too easy for those who are interested to coerce a woman into having an unwanted abortion.

Well said! I agree completely. Most women who have abortions feel like they have no choice at all. Once abortion is accepted by society, it becomes easy for the father of the child or the parents of the pregnant girl to abdicate responsibility. After all, she can just have an abortion!

Hannah said...

I agree wholeheartedly with your post! I'm pro-life as well...
I just wanted to add something for the subject of women who have an abortion because of a life or death situation: I don't think it's right even then to have an abortion (and many people will disagree with me on this...just saying what I think *wink*), because our Heavenly Father has us all in His hands, and has the power to turn that situation around. And even if He chooses not to change the situation, His plans are always superior to ours. :) A very close family friend (she's like my grandmother) was in a life or death situation when she was giving birth to her youngest child (who is now 25). She should have died, along with her daughter, but she refused to allow the doctor to abort her baby. She and her husband, along with their pastor, prayed without ceasing, until her daughter was born, and things changed completely so that neither of them were in danger of dying. Prayer really does work! :)
Just thought someone might like hearing that...
Oh! And thank you for the lovely comment on my blog Anna! :D

Terry said...

phdcow,
I fail to see the logic. What slippery slope? How will protecting the lives of unborn children lead to outlawing birth control or restricting women's access to health care? That's a pretty big leap! Does anyone really believe that, or is it just a scare tactic used by abortion proponents to keep us in the U.S. from demanding that our representatives represent what most of us believe when they enact laws? Are our children any less human in utero than they are outside the womb? That we even debate this issue is disturbing to me. God help our culture.

Karen said...

It's just a scare tactic. They know good and well that over 98% of abortions are done for purely non-medical reasons, and yes they did have birth control when abortion was illegal. Though I don't see what the big scare is. Everyone seems to think they are gonna die without their artificial birth control. My goodness. They're never gonna outlaw thermometers, and that's the only method I've used for the last 2 years, and the only child I had in that time period was one I wanted very much. Abortion was illegal for a long time, back when common sense was far more abundant.

Mrs. T said...

Well said :)

PhDCow said...

Arguments about abortion never end well, so I'm going to step out and leave you with two thoughts.

#1 I am very thankful for the availability of birth control. I'm currently using an IUD and before I had my children, I was on the Pill. Whether you personally believe in contraception, I am glad that it is there for women who need it.

#2 I notice a lot of judgment going on regarding women who have had abortions. What happened to "hating the sin, not the sinner?" Until you've walked in her shoes, don't judge a women who's chosen abortion.

I am thankful to live in a country where we are all free to express our opinions.

Anna S said...

PhD:

On your second point, I think we agree.

Alexandra said...

When abortion is common it is normalized. The world is becoming more and more desensitized to any negativity associated with abortion. We get messages from society, especially our laws defining life, that life really isn't life until the child is born, so abortion is morally acceptable - laws set important moral boundaries in society.

When I was a child, the only place in society I was hearing anything negative about abortion was from my church.

It's not much of a choice when society imprints the acceptability of abortion on you at a tender age. It's not so easy changing beliefs which you were raised(by peers, school, respected teachers, laws of your country, society at large) to believe as good and true. Even harder when you see your young friends who are nice people getting abortions. It takes the bad out of it.

Many of us feel like we have little choice when the idea of options do not figure so prominently. Not to mention that abortion has become politicized. I think we've forgotten the fact that at conception that child is a human being. We are such a visual society, if we don't "see" it, it doesn't exist. Where is their(the unborn) choice figured in all this. It's not a political issue to bat around - it's a human life whether he/she is wanted or not. When we abort our children, we take away their choice to live.

Ahuva said...

There are states in the US where an abortion is very difficult to get even when the life of the mother is at stake. I've read quotes from doctors saying that the life of the fetus is of equal importance to the life of the mother.

This goes against my religious beliefs. If my rabbi ever mandated an abortion, I don't want some law telling me that I can't do what Judaism prescribes. (In Orthodox Judaism, the life of the mother is paramount and an abortion is *required* if her life is in danger.)

Abortion is a decision to be made by a woman, her rabbi/minister/priest, her husband and her doctor. A politician doesn't have any place in it.

Anonymous said...

Hello to all,
About 16 years ago, a friend came over and confided that her daughter was pregnant (she was about 17) and that she was considering an abortion. She supported her daughter in this decision. The father was not going to be in the picture. I showed her a book that showed the baby at different stages inutero and she was so surprised that at 16 weeks gestation, which is where her daughter was at the time, that the fetus was a "real baby". I showed her that it looks like a "real baby" much sooner than that. Had I not taken this book off my shelf, my friend would have continued to think the child was just a blob. Tracy ended up having the child, and although things financially and all were not easy for her, she kept her baby girl and is so happy that she made the choice to keep her. She cannot even imagine that she once entertained thoughts of getting rid of her.

I am sure that 99.9% of the women who contemplate abortion, and then opt against it, NEVER regret the decision to keep or give life to the child they carried. I have NEVER heard a woman say, "I wish I had gone through with the abortion."

That is definitely something to take into SERIOUS consideration.

Bonnie said...

I believe that we should all have free choice in everything, and honestly it is up to the person whether they have an abortion or not, but I think what we fail to remember is that yes, often the women don't see any other option, because they haven't been shown another option, or they're pressured, or they just don't care.

Good post Anna.

Anna S said...

Ahuva, I'm not even that concerned with legal issues. If people were horrified and repulsed by abortions, no one would want them anyway. The mass murder of unborn babies would disappear without any legislations.

For many years, people simply considered children as blessings. An abortion would have been unthinkable, even if it was legal.

Now things have changed. Radically. That's what bothers me.

Jaimie said...

Anna,
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I don't believe you are being melodramatic at all in noting the similiarities between the abortion epidemic and the Holocaust! I think we sometimes tend not to be dramatic enough about the subject. The true "slippery slope" here in the U.S. is not that women may be denied health services but that if unborn babies aren't really human, then maybe the elderly, or the mentally handicapped, etc., aren't really people either. And that's the scary kind of logic that such "pro-choice" thinking tends to produce.

Michelle said...

"#2 I notice a lot of judgment going on regarding women who have had abortions. What happened to "hating the sin, not the sinner?" Until you've walked in her shoes, don't judge a women who's chosen abortion."

I won't say that doesn't happen, because obviously it does, but it's not really germane to this discussion is it? No one here has said anything disparaging about women who have had abortions, only about abortion itself. To bring this up in a conversation where nothing of the sort is going on seems to me to be a way to distract and change the subject.

As far as the slippery slope of outlawing abortion leading to birth control, I think it's nonsense. Do you believe the opposing slippery slope argument, that allowing abortion leads to devaluation of life and to other travesties such as child abuse, assisted suicide, euthanasia? I think that argument holds more water considering that we are actually seeing it happen already.

Of course, even if you could prove that outlawing abortion would rid us of birth control, you have to realize that you are setting it up as the lives of children vs. the convenience of mothers. Not much of a choice there.

Terry said...

"#2 I notice a lot of judgment going on regarding women who have had abortions. What happened to "hating the sin, not the sinner?" Until you've walked in her shoes, don't judge a women who's chosen abortion."
I won't say that doesn't happen, because obviously it does, but it's not really germane to this discussion is it? No one here has said anything disparaging about women who have had abortions, only about abortion itself. To bring this up in a conversation where nothing of the sort is going on seems to me to be a way to distract and change the subject."

Thank you, Michelle. Amen.

Rebekah S. said...

Amen! Abortion is murder no matter what anyone else says. Just a few weeks ago, I was informed that my aunt had had an abortion. I was completely devestated! It was such a hard time for me! I just cried and cried.

A distant cousin of mine is 15 and is 3 months pregnant. And yet, you know what? She has chosen to not have an abortion, but to rather keep and love the baby! I am so proud of her for her strength. She was sinning due to having pre-marital sexual relationships, but she chose to not go on and continue in her sin by having an abortion. And for that, I'm very proud of her!

Jennifer said...

Thank you again Anna for your thoughts! I am and will always be pro-life for many of the reasons you stated. I have also likened abortion to the Holocaust, and I don't think it is extreme to do so. I think that saying you are pro-choice but don't necessarily agree with abortion leads down a very slippery slope...when is there a gray area when it comes to killing an innocent baby? Thanks again Anna!

Andarta said...

I don't know about any golden age when children were valued. Up until the turn of last (20th) century, infanticide was distressingly common in Western nations. It's still rather common outside of our bubble. But I took that as an indication that humanity has been growing out of a brutal past. In time, I think we'll outgrow abortion as well.

Kaeus said...

a friend of mine recently confided in me that at 17 she was forced into an abortion by her mother.

she had left her fiance because he was drinking very heavily and having blackouts when he didnt recognise anyone - including her - and was trying to rob service stations, and she was worried about her own and her baby's safety. of course, when she went home to her mother, mum decided she wouldnt be able to cope with a baby and in a heartbroken, scared-child daze, she was unable to put up a fight. the abortion clinic showed her an ultrasound of the baby before they terminated.

no-one should be able to force a scared child into anything like that. she didnt want the abortion, it happened anyway. and now, every time she looks at her daughter, im sure she wonders aout the one she wasnt allowed to have.

not to mention what an abortion can do. she was surprised to find out she was pregnant again after 6 years - she was sure something had gone wrong with the abortion and 'messed her up'.

Anonymous said...

Anna- what a great post. As a mother of three boys I love them dearly. I am pro-life though I grew up as pro-choice. There are times that I do believe that it may be necessary to abort but those are VERY few and very far between.

As for birth control I do think that it is something that those who are not wanting children should use. I realize there are those who do not believe in it and good for you but birth control is something personal and that is one thing that should be a choice that every woman should make with the help of her health care provider to be informed and to help find what is best for the individual.

Anonymous said...

Dear Anna,

Your connection between abortion and the holocaust is chillingly correct. Here in the US in the early 20th century many prominent people thought the solution to society's ills was to simply keep the 'undesirables' from breeding. Margaret Sanger herself said, "Colored people are like human weeds and are to be exterminated." One of her supporters, Lothrop Stoddard, actually gave high praise to early Nazi euthanization programs. (The gas chambers in those programs became models for for the ones in concentration camps.)
In the US today 78% percent of clinics are in minority communities and 35% of aborted babies are African-American (they are the only people in america whose population is on the decline).

I know this is off topic with the rest of the responses, but I just wanted you to know you're absolutely right.

Many blessings to you,

Charity Farrow

Sue said...

Michelle:

I can see where you are coming from when you say you think not to judge a women who has had an abortion until you've walked in her shoes isn't relevant to this discussion, but I respectively disagree.

I'm thinking about women who may have come across Anna's blog for the first time today or who have lurked for a while and have had an abortion. While there's no direct condemnation of a woman like this, there is also little compassion for her situation either, IMHO.

My .02,

Sue

Ahuva said...

Anna,

I agree with you that abortion is a horrible concept. It just makes me nervous that people advocate making it illegal rather than working on changing the way people view abortions. We did it with cigarettes-- why not abortions? No one actually likes the idea of an abortion.

I was always taught to think of a fetus as a part of the mother-- like a hand. A hand is wonderful, valued and vital... but if that hand turns gangrenous then one is obligated to either cure it or cut it off-- otherwise you will die and allowing yourself to die is a sin. I know that most of the readers here follow a religion that rules differently which is why the law needs to stay out of it so that we can both follow our different Paths given to us by G-d.

Alyzza Martin said...

I think some of you have a rose-tinted view of how things used to be. You’re setting up a false dichotomy between legal abortions and no abortions at all.

Legalized abortion didn’t spring from a desire to kill babies, but rather from the hope it would put an end to the butchery of back-alley abortions.

Many back-alley abortions were themselves the result of a society that stigmatized both mother and child, if pregnancy occurred outside of marriage, to the point where pregnant teens had to ”visit an aunt” until such time as they delivered. The baby, still wet from the delivery, would then be whisked away from its natural mother, who was probably still strapped to the birthing chair, and handed off to its new parents – often a middle class couple who would spend the rest of their lives claiming this child as their own flesh and blood.

The idea that pregnant women should be obligated to carry to term for no better a reason than that yuppie couples with infertility problems want to adopt healthy white infants rather than choosing from the wide selection of kids already in the system – that’s beyond monstrous.

In the United States, this is a big issue because some people want to outlaw not only abortion, but the contraceptives which prevent pregnancy in the first place. Their aim is not to save babies, but to punish women for having sex.

This is evidenced not only by their view of women as overly emotional children incapable of making any major decision without the help of legislation, but also by their policies against universal healthcare or adequate social assistance for those already born.

The mentality in this thread seems to be, “well I don’t need access to reproductive health services, and so you don’t either – whether those services include abortion or merely contraceptives.”

I’m pro-life, too, but I would rather curb the number of abortions by offering viable alternatives – and I’m not talking about the garbage “alternatives” offered by those lying “crisis pregnancy centers,” either. I mean real alternatives, such as better healthcare for disabled newborns, more educational opportunities for young mothers, job training and placement, etc.

Gothelittle Rose said...

I have a unique perspective on the abortion matter. I was conceived out of wedlock to a woman just out of highschool and her sailor boyfriend. I was never in danger of being aborted, because neither of them would have even thought of it. They married, had me, and are still married today with five children altogether.

However, I grew up bombarded with messages from the media that my life did not matter, that my mother would have been better off to abort me, that society in general would have no support whatsoever for my existence. Were they singling me out on purpose? No. But when you hear someone saying "You've got your whole life ahead of you, you don't need to be tied down to a baby, it'll disrupt your life, you're too smart to end up like this, it's just a blob anyways" to a pregnant late-teens, how do you think that makes me feel?

Two friends of mine, one of whom was conceived and born out of wedlock to a woman in poverty and one whose mother was crippled in his birthing, have had similar experiences. When you hear people emphasizing how it's so much better for society to kill those in the exact same position as your own conception and birth, you begin to feel as if there really is no societal support for your life.

I can't be comforted with the knowledge that most pro-choicers say it's ok if my mother happened to decide to keep me, since it was her choce. If they had been advising her during her pregnancy, what would they have told her to do? What would Planned Parenthood have told her to do?

I don't know if people realize that it does have an effect on those born since Roe Vs. Wade in such situations, that we are indeed very aware that we "should have been" killed according to societal opinion. All of those whom I've spoken to (many more than me and my two friends) are aware of it and very pro-life, even those who are otherwise very typically Liberal Democrat.

We are the ones who might not have been. We are the inconvenient ones. We survived the secular materialist holocaust.

Anna S said...

Rose:

I'm kind of in the same boat.

My mother was pressured to have an abortion by my father and he left her when she refused to go along with it.

It makes you see things differently when you know it's actually a miracle your own life wasn't taken away by abortion.

Anonymous said...

I recently lost an unborn baby, because I became pregnant unintentionally and would not have an abortion. I have medical problems that make it impossible for me to have any more children, and it would have been a miracle indeed for the pregnancy to progress and bring a healthy baby and my own life intact. I nearly died along with my baby, and I am not yet recovered, but the choice was God's. My baby did not die at the hands of another person, with limited and flawed knowledge, but it was God who came for my baby's soul to be returned to Him at His OWN time. I should not have become pregnant and it was a strange thing that I did since I had not in the 10 years prior using the same methods. Every source told me to have an abortion, and there is no miraculous happy ending to my story. All I have is a clear conscience of the love for my baby God sent that was greater than my fear of what might happen, because all things are in God's hands. We never know what may or may not come to pass, the world is full of medically unexplained surprises, and to me the only rule by which to live is Hope in God.

Green Eyes said...

Rose and Anna,

It certainly does affect us, doesn't it? If abortion were truly socially neutral, that would be one thing, but it's so actively encouraged (especially among the young or unwed) that it does seem as if my own life is condemned because of it. My mother became pregnant with me when she had just turned 14; obviously she was unwed, and my "biological contributor" made of less-than-savory stuff. My grandparents were deeply pro-life, but what did society at large encourage? Abortion, of course.

For my mom, keeping me was the realization that the life of her child could not be sacrificed to the idea of convenience. She dropped out of high school during her pregnancy, but has since acquired a degree, is about to acquire another, and has a fantastic job... all of those things that are considered "success" in our world, and held up as prizes that young mothers will naturally miss out on. Was it difficult? No doubt. Was it impossible? No way.

I have a tremendously difficult time understanding the idea that being pro-life translates in some way to wanting to "punish women for having sex." Punishment implies some superimposed form of discipline... bearing children as a result of sex is simply a natural law. A law of which we are (surely) all aware, when we choose to engage in that activity.

PhDCow said...

I strongly encourage everyone to read The Girls Who Went Away which tells the stories of birth mothers who gave their babies up for adoption in the 50s and 60s.

Also, my mother got pregnant with me 2 months after meeting my father. She clearly planned the pregnancy because she wanted to get out of her large family and she thought my dad's family was rich. She was a 19-year old nursing student, so she knew exactly how to/not to get pregnant. She told me when I was a teenager that she had made the appointment for the abortion. And I spent pretty much my entire childhood being told by her mother that I ruined my mother's life. Yes, I'm glad she chose to keep me, but the emotional baggage she's given me is something I deal with on a daily basis.

Abortion is not a black and white/good and bad issue.

Anonymous said...

First, PhD's slippery-slope argument is correct. In Colorado, there is a movement to define a fertilized egg as a human being. The goal is not only to legally classify abortion as murder, but to ban any type of birth control that prevents implantation as murder too. This would include all hormonal methods.

Second, just because you don't know anyone who has died in childbirth or chosen to abort due to life-threatening circumstances doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

Third, I don't know anyone (and I'm a feminist) who thinks that the decision to abort or not is an easy decision for a woman. What we think is that a woman's medical decisions should be between her and her doctor.

Thanks,
Emily

Coffee Catholic said...

Abortion is abortion regardless of how we try and justify it. To me Pro-Choice will always automatically = abortion as long as abortion is a part of being Pro-Choice!

Alexandra said...

Just for the sake of clarity, that sort of ban on birth control is for eggs which have been 'fertilized', not birth control for eggs that have not been fertilized. The logic is that life begins at conception - a soul attaches. Once this happens, it's consideered murder among those which believe. It's not murder if here is no fertilization, so a push for a ban against all B.C. would come out of a pro-life stance on abortion.

I've had a D & E before for life threatening reasons. This was NOT considered an abortion by my faith, the Catholic church. I think most faiths allow for this without it being a reason for losing or lessening grace. Catholic teaching clearly allows for certain medical procedures, which indirectly and involuntarily result in the death of the prenatal, to save the life of the mother, but only when all options to save the life of the prenatal have been exhausted.

I think when we are dealing with the word 'abortion', it is generally agreed among pro-lifers that it does not include procedures for life threatening situations. It's the thousands of abortions which occur everyday for other reasons that are concerning. I'm pretty sure this was Anna's direction for her post.

Gothelittle Rose said...

Waitaminit... waaaaaaitaminit... Punishing women for having sex? Who thinks that taking birth control options away is even necessary to punish women for having sex?

http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001471.cfm

From the article:

"Campus health workers ask about everything that could have anything to do with a students' stated condition. Everything, that is, but anything having to do with sex. Do you eat too many calories, sleep too few hours, smoke, drink, or party too hard? Those things are bad, they say. It's time to change your behaviors — for your own good! But if you're having sex with multiple partners or ending a pregnancy with an abortion, that's your own business. Your privacy in such matters, it seems, is paramount. Even if those behaviors could mean the early end of your life or fertility; your right to do whatever you think best trumps reality."

I'm sorry, but even with abortion, birth control, and a very permissive culture, women are still hurt by sexual promiscuity.

Try this for a moment... stop brushing your teeth and eat tons of sugar. Through a long period of pain and humiliation, you will develop cavities. Luckily, modern technology can drill and fill. Then your teeth themselves will start falling out. Ah, but why brush? We have very good fake teeth that you can get!

Now some people do all they can to keep their teeth clean and still lose them for all their hard work. We wouldn't cast aspersions on them. But to lose them because you decided you didn't want the bother of taking care of them? Because you would rather be "FREEEEEE" than to curb your instincts and bridle your desires?

I'll put it pure and simple.
Whether abortion on demand for convenience is legal or illegal, whether birth control is government-paid or hard to find, whether society frowns on promiscuous sex or celebrates it, women will suffer when they partake.

Anonymous said...

I believe that women do have the choice. If women feel they really can't take care of a baby, why have a baby be raised by a mother who never wanted a child or have the child raised in a foster care where the kid will never know his birth parents? I rather have the child dead before birth than grow up in a bad situation and possibly do the world wrong. But I will say this, abortion should have a limit. Abortion is NOT birth control. There are women out there that will get knocked up again and again and go get an abortion time and time again. They are not going to learn if they have access to unlimited abortions. I say 2 abortions and that's it. 2 get out of jail free cards. Get pregnant once, hey sh** happens. Get pregnant twice, last and final warning to start using protection. Get pregnant a thrid time, yeah you're on your own babe, time to grow up and learn from your mistakes.

Andarta said...

Emily,
To say that abortion is purely a medical matter between a woman and her doctor, to say nothing of the child, begs the question and strives to circumvent the discussion. Furthermore, people can and did make the exact same argument about infanticide previously, ie that it was a private matter between a woman and her family, yet society has nixed that bit of entitlement long ago.

The fundamental flaw in the feminist argument is that it is absolutist, essentially that the woman always trumps the child no matter what, disregarding varying viability and advances in understanding of fetal development. If the same song was barely convincing before, it becomes less so the more we learn. It doesn't bother me if you continue to repeat it, but you must be aware that the bulk of society is swayed by what we've learned and are passing you by. Feel free to tell us that abortion is "not up for discussion" in one way or another, that won't stop it from being discussed, it just means you won't be included.

As for the slippery slope argument, hormonal contraception has never been proven to prevent implantation and even were all prop dependent contraceptives eliminated legally, there are still plenty of natural and uncontested methods remaining with the benefit of not having nasty side effects. In other words, the boogeyman of a political agenda to sweep away abortion and than contraception doesn't much influence me.

Rebekah S. said...

Here's something for all you fellow Americans to think about: don't you all find it odd that abortion is legal, when our own Declaration of Independence condemns it??? It says that we ALL have "THE RIGHT TO LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Go figure!!



Terry,

Hi! I too am against contraceptives, but isn't it horrible and so sad to think that those are available yet there are millions of abortions occuring anyway? It's just a tragedy. However, contraceptives(especially the pill) have been shown to cause abortions as well. One family we know personally used the pill for the first 4 years of their marriage. However, near the end of those 4 years, they became pregnant and because the lady was on the pill, it then killed the child. The pill had failed at first, but then killed the developing baby. Once they realized what had happened, they were overwhelmed with grief and sorrow. They cried out to the Lord in repentance, and they now have such a beautiful family! What many women don't know (or choose to ignore) is that different forms of contraceptives are not only detrimental to the woman's health, but they do indeed, at times, produce abortions.


Hannah,
AMEN! What a blessing to meet such a likeminded sister! I couldn't agree with you more! Even if the pregnant woman's health were at risk, what makes us think that it's automatically ok to murder that unborn baby?! Murder is sin, no matter what. We need to learn to trust God in those circumstances, knowing that "He works all things together for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose."



Blessings to you all!



P.S. Anna, on a sidenote, I just wanted to let you know that I'm still working on that history of feminism article!

Gothelittle Rose said...

"If women feel they really can't take care of a baby, why have a baby be raised by a mother who never wanted a child or have the child raised in a foster care where the kid will never know his birth parents?"

Anonymous, I'd like you to try something. Go hunt up as many people as you can who were raised by foster care. I can give you a ton of names if you need a starting point. Ask each one whether they would rather be dead. You can even find the most contented people who were raised by their birth parents in harmony and love and ask them: "If you could choose between not knowing your birth parents and being dead, which would you choose?"

That little phrase of yours, "Get pregnant once, hey sh** happens" says more about this culture's value on human life than any PC-friendly comment I've ever heard. At least you're being (brutally) honest.

I've got an extra thought to interject into the contraceptives talk. Studies are beginning to show an alarming alteration of fish in our waterways (us being the U.S.) due to estrogens in the water, some of which are identified as our use of plastics, but surprisingly many of which are identified as pharmaceutical oral contraceptive. (The estrogens have some sort of 'signature' that tells the scientists where they came from.) Women naturally express estrogen in their urine in small amounts (I did not know this months ago), but on the Pill, they excrete more... enough more for a city full of women to poison the water. The fish are coming out overwhelming female or hermaphrodites, enough so to really mess up their breeding patterns. The scientists studying this are very concerned.

Several news stations have covered this on their 'back pages', including MSNBC, but you have to follow the studies to their source to even hear The Pill mentioned in many places. They'll say "pharmaceuticals" or "common estrogen-producing pharmaceuticals" (how many of those do we have?), but won't mention The Pill by name until you get closer to the actual studies.

One feminist response so far has merely been that if more men are drinking water with more estrogens in it, it'll 'help them understand us better'. Yegads, woman. Ever hear of endometriosis?

Rebekah S. said...

Anonymous,

I'm sorry, but I'm completely appalled by your comment! If a woman has experienced an unwanted pregnancy, put the baby up for adoption!!! Bless that child with a loving family. If you had been conceived and your mother didn't want you, would you have rather been murdered in the womb, or given to an adoptive family? I think I know what your answer would be, because I'm sure it would be the same as mine.

Rebekah

Pendragon said...

Thank you for this thoughtful post about choice. I am pro-choice AND pro-abortion. I strongly believe that abortion is a valuable tool for women who are pregnant and do not want to be, for whatever reason whether economic, professional, medical, or any other reason. Therefore, in my view, abortion (while certainly an ordeal) is a GOOD thing for those women who want it.

But my view is all about CHOICE. I am very much against women being forced to continue a pregnancy that she does not want. By the same token, I am very much against women being forced to halt a pregnancy against her will or being forced to limit the number of children she has (as in China) or to become sterilized against her will.

I do not believe that all or most women who get abortions are coerced by husbands or boyfriends to do so, although I am sure that does happen. (However, there are also women who are coerced by husbands, boyfriends, parents or even their own governments into getting pregnant or carryig an unwanted pregnancy to term.) The key to ending coercion of any sort over women's private choices is a greater feminist consciousness in society -- a consciousness that will help more men understand that they do not have the right to control women's reproductive choices, and will empower women to feel that they can stand up for themselves. Also, more economic and educational opportunities for women around the world is key as well.

Pendragon said...

A couple more points I would like to address:

Terri brings up the issue of abortion being unnecessary due to safe and highly effective birth control. I used to feel the same way, as I have always had access to extremely effective hormonal contraception. However, I have to acknowledge that even in industrialized countries, not every woman is in the same position I have been in. In my own country (the U.S.), some women are too poor to buy birth control, some women cannot take the most effective methods of birth control for medical reasons, and some women are deprived of adequate education regarding contraception. (Many anti-abortion people in the U.S. also fight to ensure that contraception is never taught in the schools.)

In response to another comment on this thread, I DO believe that the rights of the women should trump the rights of the fetus in the early stages of development, certainly in the first trimester when the vast majority of abortions occur. I find extremely offensive the notion that a fertilized egg with no past, no consciousness, and no neurological funciton is more important than an adult, sentient woman.

I also don't think that adoption and/or foster care are the answer (although I used to believe this). Giving a child up for adoption still requires the mother to undergo the medically risky and extremely debilitating and painful experience of pregnancy and childbirth -- as well as the difficulty of giving up one's child after undergoing that process and the difficulty of knowing one's child is out there somewhere out there in the world withoug one's presence. Also, a white child is far more likely to be successfully adopted than say a black child, at least in the U.S. -- so adoption is not the perfect solution for every mother.

I certainly understand that most people would rather be alive than not -- even if it means living in foster care or in poverty. But it doesn't follow from that that abortion is wrong. If that were true, then it would also be wrong not to bear a child every year during one's period of fertility -- surely all those babies are going to grow up glad that they are alive rather than never conceived at all, right? Shouldn't we therefore all start having babies right after we become fertile at age 12 or 13?

Gothelittle Rose said...

I disagree with Pendragon here, as respectfully as I am able. I would not place more value on a human life due to age or race.

I also disagree that not creating a human life is the same as creating one and then killing it.

Furthermore, I disagree that full-term pregnancy and childbirth is less healthy to the human body than abortion, and I think medical studies and statistics will support me on this.

Anna S said...

'Rose,

I would like to second what you said. Especially about the health part. I will never believe that a natural and healthy pregnancy is worse for the woman's body than a gruesome abortion.

Rebekah S. said...

Hi, Pendragon! You said: "Giving a child up for adoption still requires the mother to undergo the medically risky and extremely debilitating and painful experience of pregnancy and childbirth"

I know women personally who have undergone abortions and who also have living children. And they've all told me that the abortion was far more painful and more traumatic than the childbirth was. Also, statistics and studies planly show that abortion leads to many health problems in women.

Anonymous said...

Therefore, in my view, abortion (while certainly an ordeal) is a GOOD thing for those women who want it.
...and will empower women to feel that they can stand up for themselves.

Feminists define feminism as:
"Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings."
but obviously they mean...
"Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings, but babies are not."

Dr Mike S Adams puts it as:
Feminism is a minority social movement, whose members murder innocent children in order to obtain sexual gratification.

I DO believe that the rights of the women should trump the rights of the fetus in the early stages of development
Somehow, I think you have no scientific, religious or moral basis for this belief.

But my view is all about CHOICE.
Yes, it's all about choice. I mean, a woman can CHOOSE to become pregnant( or NOT).

...as well as the difficulty of giving up one's child after undergoing that process and the difficulty of knowing one's child is out there somewhere out there in the world withoug one's presence.
They are so many women out there, who wish that they had not aborted their babies in their youth; infact, many of these women later become staunch pro-life activists.

Anonymous said...

Pendragon:...or being forced to limit the number of children she has (as in China)

AfterAbortion

...former N.O.W. president Molly Yard has defended the Chinese anti-choice policy, saying: "I consider the Chinese government's policy among the most intelligent in the world."

More: Is NOW Pro-Choice or Pro-Abortion?

Gothelittle Rose said...

Sex is way over-inflated in our culture. To hear us talk, you'd think it was a necessity for life... food, water, shelter, and sex. It isn't!

Suppose we decided that trips to Europe (or elsewhere, if Europe is where you live) were necessary for life? That without the 'broadening of the mind' that travel brings, you'll die stupid? What would we be willing to do to others in our lives to ensure that it happened? Suppose we decided that alcohol was necessary to life and our thirst for such, however it was, was utterly uncontrollable and control should not be attempted? Suppose we decided that to live you must own a television and therefore excused anyone without a television who stole from someone who had one?

For some of the pro-choice/pro-abortion comments I've seen here, I feel it necessary to make one thing straight before any reasonable discussion on the subject can occur.

Sex is not necessary for life.

Your 'right to have sex' therefore does not trump ANYBODY'S right to live, no matter how small they are.

The desire for sex is not uncontrollable.

You can go from birth to death without once having sex and still have lived a good, fulfilling, satisfying life. You can go from adolescence to death having as many sexual encounters as you like and die alone, miserable, sick, and wondering what went wrong.

Pregnancy does not happen without sex. Pregnancy is not airborne. You can't 'catch it' by holding hands. You can't 'catch it' by sharing drinks. It is Not That Easy to get pregnant.

A very good way for a woman to be sure that she is never be forced to carry a child to term is to not have sex! This is not rocket science! It is not oppression! It is nature!

I'll summarize to make sure I'm perfectly clear.

You don't need sex to live. You don't need sex to have a good life. And if you want that much to not be pregnant, you don't want sex that much. Without marriage and hope for a family, it becomes a hobby. Get another one.

Madeleine said...

I think the analogy to the Holocaust is always problematic, the historical phenomen is really complex. But I do not see a striking similarity between abortion industry and concentration camps in Nazi-Germany.

There has been a deep rooted antisemitic atmosphere in Germany as deep as in many other European countries. There were prejudices and envy because Jews were established in good - often academic - jobs. But most of the people surely did not approve the killing and mass murder of 5 million Jews. The concentration camps were built strictly seperated from cities, towns and even villages. Of course, there was no great interest to investigate what happened to the Jews that left their houses and no great public concern.

But one interesting point in this holocaust-abortion-analogy is this: The systematic murder of the Jews was a topic the people discussed in private, behind closed doors, a little bit like telling horror stories and certainly not loudly.
But the abortion-topic is treated completely different: It is discussed very publicly and it is promoted by humanistic people. It is not argued that there is worthless life, but argued that it is in the interest of poor and exploited women. Pro-abortionists are self-consciuous because it all happens in the name of a modern and human society. That is the great mistake by pro-abortionists - perhaps they have good intentions and goals but go a completely wrong way.

Anna S said...

Rose:

Right on!

Alexandra said...

"The desire for sex is not uncontrollable."

Agree, we are not animals.

No one has ever withered away and died due to celebacy.

Dana said...

You know, there's a reason God told us that marriage was one man/one woman for life. Consider that sexually transmitted diseases would be nearly eradicated...and how fewer abortions there would be! I firmly belive that birth control should be practiced before conception, not afterwards.

Rebekah S. said...

Amen, Rose! How true your comment was.

Madeleine,

I think what Anna and others have been meaning(currect me if I'm wrong, Anna!) when they compare abortion with the Holocaust, is the millions of innocent Jews that were brutally murdered with the millions of innocent babies that have been murdered as well. For Israel, the Holocaust was a most horrific occurance, and here in the United States, for those of us who are pro-life, abortion is the same thing.

Pendragon said...

I will respond in turn to some of the comments made in response to my comment:

WOMEN OFTEN REGRET ABORTION: This is certainly true, but a terrible basis to oppose choice. (I would note that much regret may be due to societal stigma as well as the belief that abortion is modally wrong; but even absent that, I concede that many women would nonetheless regert their abortions.) Many of us regret choices we make in life -- financial choices, romantic choices, and professional choices. I have regrets about many things, but that does not mean that I should not have the freedom to choose or that my regrets give me the right to deprive other women of their choices. By all means, oppose abortion based on concern for the embryo but if you base your opposition on concern for the woman, you are essentially saying that she is a mental child who does not know her own best interest.

ABORTION IS A RISKY PHYSICAL ORDEAL: Yes, yes, yes! I think a lot of the trouble in these discussions is that people (especially men and also women who have never been pregnant) too readily assume that abortion is easy-peasy and that pregnancy is also easy-peasy. Both are risky and difficult and painful. That is why it must be entirely up to the woman to choose what happens to her body. With more public education on how hard both options are, the harder it will be for people to say, "Oh just have an abortion, it will solve all our problems," or "Just have the baby and give it up for adoption" or "These women who have abortions do it for frivolous reasons or because it is the easy way out."

SOMEONE FROM NOW SUPPORTS THE ONE-CHILD ONLY POLICY IN CHINA: This person is wrong and anti-choice by definition. She is the reason that NOW does not speak for all feminists. By all means, criticize her vehemently. I will support you. Indeed, I would say that this woman's position is anti-feminist in that it supports the deprivation of women's agency and choice. I don't care if the speaker is a purported feminist or a member of a feminist organization or takes other feminist positions -- supporting China's one child policy is inherently unfeminist.

THE CHOICE IS MADE AT THE TIME OF THE CHOICE TO HAVE SEX: I agree that today's culture exaggerates the importance of sex. But generations of human history have established that abstaining from sex altogether except for the purpose of reproduction is not realistic. There are many religions that MANDATE frequent intercourse between husband and wife, and marital rape was only recently (within my mother's lifetime) recognized as a crime, the notion being that women are obliged to have sex with their husbands whenever husband wants. (Please note that it is often MARRIED women who choose abortion. Yet abstinence is never preached to the married.)

I definitely applaud efforts to reduce the need for abortion since, as noted above, abortion is not an easy choice to make. It is far better not to be in the situation to begin with. Ways to reduce the need for abortion include widespread education about pregnancy prevention (including abstinence), widespread availability of affordable and effective contraception, empowering women to withstand coercion to have sex, educating boys and men as well as women regarding the consequences of sex (including the difficulties placed on the woman as well as the difficulties placed on the man of an unwanted pregnancy) and their ethical responsibilities to do their part to avoid unwanted
pregnancy and to refrain from coercing sex. Yet, anti-choicers frequently oppose these measures.

FEMINISTS VALUE WOMEN MORE THAN BABIES: I agree that feminists value women more than embryos and fetuses. This point begs the question of whether embryos and fetuses should be considered "babies." THAT is the real point of dispute, and where discussion tends to break down.
Look, this is not about elevating myself at the expense of the poor little babies. I have never been pregnant and I do not expect ever become pregnant unless I choose to be. I do not know of anyone among my friends or family who has become pregnant and felt the need to get an abortion. I used to buy into the notion that no one really needs an abortion, because we can all just use contraception or abstain from sex or give an unwanted child up for adoption. But through reading about the subject, I have come to the conclusion that it is not that simple for those women who find themselves in that situation. My analysis might be different if I believed that there is a soul inside the womb at 5 weeks, but I don't have a basis to believe that. So, even if you believe I am wrong, my position is a principled one rather than just based on a desire for sexual gratification per Mr. Adams.

Anonymous said...

Drunken New Year one-night stands will bring record number of abortions

Gothelittle Rose : For some people, the need for sex does triumph another's right to live.

---

Schoolgirls can get morning after pill without uttering a word by flashing 'modesty' card

Schoolgirls as young as 12 years old ! Where's the modesty in pre-marital sex and teenage pregnancies ? And, as usual, parents are not informed to 'protect' the child's right to privacy.

---

And here's another one...

Abortion: why it’s the ultimate motherly act

Last year I had an abortion, and I can honestly say it was one of the least difficult decisions of my life. I’m not being flippant when I say it took me longer to decide what work-tops to have in the kitchen than whether I was prepared to spend the rest of my life being responsible for a further human being.

I would like to see a time when abortion is considered an intelligent, logical, humble, compassionate thing to do. I would like abortion to be considered as, perversely, one of the ultimate acts of good mothering.


No comments needed.

Anonymous said...

More: The abortion-rights movement grapples with repression.

Rebekah S. said...

Pendragon,


You said: "Supporting China's one child policy is inherently unfeminist." I'm sorry, but I must disagree with you!

The leading feminists of the 20th century were inherently anti-child. They were teaching women that it was wrong to have children, that it was nothing but drudgery that needed to be abolished, etc. etc. This can be proved by reading some of their books and quotes, which I have.

Also, you said the following:"This point begs the question of whether embryos and fetuses should be considered "babies."" To me, I often find myself laughing over this argument, which I've heard many times before. Very early in the pregnancy, women go to hear the baby's heartbeat. Do you know of anything that's not a living person that has a heartbeat?(yes, I know animals have heartbeats, but clearly we're talking about humans for this discussion). If the fetus was not a living human being, then it would have no heartbeat. Also, even some of the most ungodly scientists will tell you that very very early in the pregnancy(I don't remember the exact number of weeks), the baby is already developing its digestion system, nervous system, and its heart is already circulating bloog throughout the baby's system. If that doesn't sound like a living human being, I don't really know what does! :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I would like to see a time when abortion is considered an intelligent, logical, humble, compassionate thing to do. I would like abortion to be considered as, perversely, one of the ultimate acts of good mothering."

This is one of the most appalling and laughable things I've ever heard. She thinks that murder is compassionate?! And how does killing your child make you a good mother?? You know as well as I do that if that child were outside the womb, she would be sent to jail for such a thing! What is our world coming to?

Anonymous said...

WOMEN OFTEN REGRET ABORTION: This is certainly true, but a terrible basis to oppose choice.

No one said otherwise.

I would note that much regret may be due to societal stigma as well as the belief that abortion is modally(sic) wrong...

Exactly, abortion is morally wrong, even if feminists treat it as a sign of women's empowerment. Really, I had to read your first comment more than once, because it implied that (the right to) abortion empowers women ! There are some things which are inherently good and inherently bad. Only for moral relativists, choice is to be respected and applauded and there is no such thing as a bad choice, regardless of whether it is right or wrong. A question to feminists: Can a woman ever make a bad choice ? If yes, should she have to face the resulting consequences ?

"These women who have abortions do it for frivolous reasons or because it is the easy way out."

Wrong : Drunken New Year one-night stands will bring record number of abortions
Gothelittle Rose and Dr Mike S Adams are right.

Re: N.O.W.'s support of China's cruel abortion policy.

This simply means that feminists are not pro-choice, they are, infact, pro-abortion.

This point begs the question of whether embryos and fetuses should be considered "babies."

...where science triumphs feminist propaganda, so you are left with no basis for abortion-rights except selfishness, irresponsibility and lack of accountability. Moreover, if it's not a baby, why does killing a pregnant woman lead to two counts of murder ? So, if an third person kills an unborn baby, it's murder, but when a woman does it herself, it's empowering ?

There are many religions that MANDATE frequent intercourse between husband and wife...

Which religions, especially in the Western World ?

---

And BTW, thanks(?) for the long Womyn's Studies lesson.

Gothelittle Rose said...

Pendragon says the analysis may be different if the baby had a soul by five weeks... Rebekah S points out in her answer that women go to hear the baby's heartbeat "very early" in the pregnancy. I'd like to add some clarifying information.

When I first knew of my baby's heartbeat, I could not hear it yet because the medical instruments were not strong enough. I saw it instead. Highest magnification showed a mere dot in the uterus, but it was pulsing steadily with life! I was so excited, so happy. This was the first time I'd laid eyes on a being who is now visible to all and sundry, an active little boy. He was not much less active as that little pulsing dot.

It was the day I was diagnosed with pregnancy, and I was five weeks along.

Regardless of logical derivations and questions of what does and does not consist of life, I know without a doubt that the little printout picture, the still-form memory of the pulsing dot, measured and diagnosed by the doctor, is truly the first picture I ever had of a very real, live son deserving of basic human rights.

He was five weeks old.

One of the saddest things about the pro-choice camp is the way it does not allow victims of both abortions and miscarriages to grieve as though they have lost a very real child. Those who minister to women suffering from either situation know how important it is to acknowledge that her pain is real.

Ahuva said...

Rebeka S. said:
"Do you know of anything that's not a living person that has a heartbeat?"

Sure.. you can make the heart of a corpse beat and cause a dead animal's body to react.

"If the fetus was not a living human being, then it would have no heartbeat. Also, even some of the most ungodly scientists will tell you that.."

There are religions (such as mine-- Judaism) that would say that the existence of a heartbeat, nervous system, what have you does not make a fetus a living person equal in importance to the pregnant woman. Please be careful when you use the term "ungodly."

Rebekah S. said...

Thanks for that wonderful comment, Gothelittlerose! Thanks for clarifying as well-I had forgotten how many weeks gestation my science textbook had said that the heart begins beating.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi, Ahuva! I respect your arguments but wonder what you would say about this: why does killing a pregnant woman lead to two counts of murder? Also, I highly respect Judaism. But the fact is, it was God Himself that said murder was wrong. So, it is not He who would agree with:"the existence of a heartbeat, nervous system, what have you does not make a fetus a living person equal in importance to the pregnant woman." If someone in your religion(which, once again, I have very much respect for) said that, they didn't get it from the OT.

Blessings to you,
Rebekah

Anonymous said...

Rebekah S.: Check out this news item: When Parents Become Executioners

Ahuva said...

Rebekah S asked, "why does killing a pregnant woman lead to two counts of murder?"

I don't use secular legal guidelines of proof as much. I could just as easily pull out Roe v. Wade and point out that the American legal system doesn't consider abortion to be murder.

"Also, I highly respect Judaism. But the fact is, it was God Himself that said murder was wrong. So, it is not He who would agree with:"the existence of a heartbeat, nervous system, what have you does not make a fetus a living person equal in importance to the pregnant woman." If someone in your religion(which, once again, I have very much respect for) said that, they didn't get it from the OT."

Actually, they did get it from the OT (see quote below). G-d said that murder was wrong. G-d did NOT say that an unborn child is "alive" in the same sense that the pregnant woman is alive, not in the "Old Testament," the "New Testament," or any of the aprocropha. The Christian idea that a fetus is of equal importance as a breathing person came later.

It's not "someone in my religion" who said that a breathing person is more important, it is codified into Orthodox Jewish law. In fact, there is indeed support for it in the Torah:

"In Exodus (Ex. 21:22) in which two men fight and one of them accidentally hits a pregnant woman in the belly, causing her to miscarry. If she is not harmed in any other way, the Bible says, then the man who struck her has to pay her husband damages. From this one can deduce that feticide isn't murder, because the penalty for murder is death." (http://www.slate.com/id/1005956/)

I'm not trying to say that one way of looking at things is better than the other, only that I strongly object to US law (or any other) getting between me and the practice of my faith. In Judaism there are (admittedly rarely) times when an abortion is mandated.

Here is an interesting discussion of the issue from a non-Jew's point of view: "What do Orthodox Jews think about Abortion and Why?" (http://www.slate.com/id/1005956/)

Rebekah S. said...

Ahuva,

Thank you for referencing me to that verse. I have to point out, though, that you misrepresented what it said. Exodus 21:22-23 says, "If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life." Clearly, in this verse, the woman does not miscarry! She gives birth prematurely, and the baby is fine. In verse 23, though, God shows that if something ends up happening to the baby(if the baby loses its life), then the man who is guilty shall surely be put to death as well. Clearly, abortion or any such thing is not lawful in God's holy sight.

In His love,
Rebekah