Wednesday, February 20, 2008

Young men and marriage

If you are a young woman of marriageable age, you might have noticed how difficult it is to find a good man who is willing to commit to marriage. It amazes me how otherwise mature and responsible men, not remotely of the playboy type, often delay marriage until their late thirties. Why, I ask myself?

Here is a comment I received from lately from a 20-something young man, a man who states he would love to become a husband and father:

"After years on the dating scene, and finding myself appalled by modern "hookup culture" it's refreshing to see that there are still traditional women like you.

I realized that I have a desire for the role of husband and father. I think, subconsciously, that's the sort of thing I've been preparing myself for all these years. A man is supposed to do the best he can for his wife (and eventually, his kids), so I've tried to make myself more physically fit, financially fit, and emotionally supportive."


However, he has…

"… trouble believing that any relationship could actually work nowadays. After seeing the ravages of divorce and the corrupt family court system affect other (usually older) men around me, I think I'd rather ride a bicycle through Iraq than get married."

Oppressed by feminism and its deteriorative effect on masculinity, he says:

"I'm glad that some women are waking up to the cultural devastation brought on by feminism. I used to buy into their ideology myself, until I realized how it was ruining a lot of lives. I can't say I hate women - I actually I think they are inherently wonderful - but I am more than a bit disappointed. Maybe one day, things will change and relationships between men and women will get better."

What do you think? I don't know about the riding a bicycle through Iraq part, but in my eyes, it is evident that we have a problem here. It isn't without a reason that young people are afraid of marriage. We have an entire generation of women who are opposed to being women and men who haven't been taught how to be men. A mature, serious young man often has trouble finding a wife when the majority of young women around him are looking for a playmate until they hit their mid-thirties.

Is it possible to restore the harmony between men and women in their unique, beautiful and separate roles? And what can we do to reinforce that?

24 comments:

Michelle said...

A few years ago I wrote a letter to the editor of National Review on this topic. At the time I was 20 and not yet married. My letter was published and I "clipped" it. Here it is:
http://usr-bin-mom.com/images/letter.gif

Looking around at the havoc our society is creating and then contemplating investing our hearts in the hope of a lasting marriage is truly frightening. I feel extremely lucky that I can now confidently put my trust in the man I married. Not many women today can say the same thing.

Terry said...

I was talking to a friend today and she wondered aloud if it is possible that the next generation (our kids) will have a more positive view and more positive results when it comes to marriage and family. I think it largely depends on the job we do as parents, wives and husbands. While I adnit that it looks bleak, for many of the reasons espoused by your young friend, I do believe there is hope.

Kelly said...

I think things will turn around. As time goes on and more and more women return home, and men return to being the sole providers of their families things will start to change. As a each couple who marries really means till death do us part, things will change. It will take time. So many of us, including this young man have seen too many marriages fall apart in awful ways. It will take as many more more marriages staying together to change the tide.
Kelly

Ewokgirl said...

I'm always reading about how people are delaying marriage, and my husband sees this among his coworkers, but I have not personally encountered this problem. The majority of my friends got married straight out of college or only a couple of years later. In fact, while I was in college (I graduated from the largest Southern Baptist university in the world), guys were actively looking for their future wives, and it sometimes creeped me out!

Looking back, I think that was a cultural thing. My denomination has always stressed marriage, and because I was at a university mostly populated by others of my denomination, we all had marriage on our minds when dating. My husband also went to a Southern Baptist university (not the same one), and he witnessed the same phenomenon. However, the people we know who attended state universities did not encounter this same focus.

Truthfully, I can't say that one is better than the other. My husband and I both know several couples who married straight out of college and are now divorced. I think some of that stems from simply wanting to be married and being in competition to get out of school with a diamond on the hand. And there was definitely competition going on! Sometimes I think the desire to be married trumped the desire to wait for the right person, hence all the divorces.

I do understand there are many in my generation who have been terrified of marriage because they've seen nothing but divorce. In fact, in my husband's family, he and one aunt are the only ones who have never been divorced. He determined years before he met me that he would not carry on the legacy of divorce in his family. He had specific criteria in mind when it came to the woman he would marry, and he didn't stray from his convictions and marry the wrong person. We've now been married almost 10 years. :-)

As for reinforcing things, we both stress very strongly with our youth group at church to wait for the right person, make sure that person is a believer and shares their convictions, and to pray. Do not ever marry someone just because you want to be married; marry because it's the person God has set out for you to marry! After attending a girls' conference with our youth girls this weekend, a natural conversational segue led me to remind the girls that if their friends and/or families do not like their boyfriends, they need to listen to them! The very people who know and love them best are the ones they need to pay attention to when it comes to relationships.

The biggest problem I think I see, though, is the prominence of premarital sex. It's becoming so normal within our culture that even those with religious backgrounds that stress abstinence until marriage are finding it difficult to live that out. Outside of personal conviction and self-control, it's difficult to combat. Those of who work with teens are really trying to stress why it's best to wait (including that it's what God wants for us), but unless they are convicted to live that out, it's a losing battle.

Rebekah S. said...

It will only be possible through much prayer!! We have to pour out hearts out to the Lord. He's the only One who can change our culture for the good. We must trust in Him, obey Him fully, and pray heartily!


It's so true that feminism has not only destroyed women, but men as well! They have no idea anymore what it means to be true men, they don't know how to treat women, they don't know what their roles as men really are, etc. etc. Feminism is one of the most detrimental philosophies around today! It's destroying men, women and children. It's destroying churches, nations and cultures. It's only if we do what 2 Chronicles 7:14-15 says that we will have any hope in a revived culture: "If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn form their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land."

Rebekah S. said...

I encourage this man to take heart! With God, ALL things are possible-and that means that with Him, marriages really will work!

Courtney said...

Amen!!

Apple Cider Mama said...

Anna, what a thoughtful, timely post.

It occurs to me that the "harmony" you ask about at the end of the post may very well be on its way. Even a cursory study of third wave feminism shows how women are beginning to understand the damage of the second wave--it tried to strip us of our femininity. Arguably, this type of feminism was necessary to break through the thick wall built up by bricks of oppression over millenia, but now that it's toppled, women are beginning to understand that they can be equal to men while remaining uniquely female. This is an exciting time in history to be a woman! Or, a man for that matter.

Unfortunately, I think "marital harmony" is going to need some more work than harmony between men and women, in general, and that is because we have two generations now who have come to witness divorce as the societal norm. Commitment and covenant are words that are little understood anymore. People swear carelessly all the time to the point where it is hard to comprehend how serious an oath was only 200 years ago. We have become desensitized to the pain of others...perhaps because we have had to shield ourselves from so much pain.

I'm rambling. I suppose I'll finish up by saying that God is truly awesome. He has created men and women. He has called them good. He is a God of harmony. We yearn for harmony and yet it often eludes us. That's where God comes in. I'll say it again, He is awesome!

Peace,
Bethany

Anonymous said...

I wish I could speak to this young man! I would try to give him the advice that I give any man who asks me how my husband and I found each other. I say "look for a girl at church". Most churches host "singles" clubs where the focus for young people is to find someone and marry.

I can't tell you how sad it makes me to think of what my children will be up against when it's their turn to find a mate. I only pray that it comes as naturally as it did to me, and that my husband and I show them what it means to be married forever.

Alexandra said...

It is changing, slowly through religous ministries. I've seen our churches change...much more young people are interested in remaining faithful to the Magisterium, and there is an interest in orthodoxy.

MarkyMark said...

Ladies,

This guy has said what's on MY mind and heart! Whenever I've ranted in the comments to Anna's posts, I've tried to convey the same sentiment, though I've done so poorly. I've been long winded, and my language has been harsh at times. This gentleman was diplomatic, yet direct; he said what I've been unable to say in the right way. My rants have not been directed at Anna or her readers; they never have been, and they never will be. One of the reasons I come here is to remind myself that there ARE good, sweet, decent women out there. I cannot allow myself to think & believe that all women are bad. If I do that, then I am just as bad as the feminazis I abhor, loathe, and despise; if I do that, then I have sunk to their level-ouch!

Let me say this: the fact that I may rant about women should not be a concern; after all, those of us who are TALKING to women about feminism and its fallout still care about the state of relationships between men & women on some level. Sure, some men's talk may be harsh, but that's because we're hurt, and we are NOT happy with the status quo! We want to live in a world where this is no longer an issue.

The men who SHOULD concern women are those who are NOT talking to you or any other women about feminism's impact on us all. Why? Because you have NO IDEA what is on their mind & heart-none! They may like women; they may be indifferent towards them; they may hate women; with the quiet guys, i.e. those who aren't talking, you never know. They are the ones who should prompt apprehension...

For me, the choice to remain single vs. taking the plunge & all the risks that go along with it is a Hobson's choice: either remain alone and cry myself to sleep some nights, or risk eating Kal-Kan when I'm 70 because my ex cleaned me out during a BS divorce. Women will divorce their husbands because they got bored, they say we grew apart, or any of the other lame reasons women give for divorcing decent men who did not deserve it. That is a HELL of a choice to be forced to make; I hate it! It's a choice I wish I didn't HAVE to make, but make it I must.

That said, remaining alone entails much less risk to my future. I'll be 46 next week, and I simply do NOT have the time to rebuild my life at this point; I don't have sufficient time left (65-70 years of age is not so far away anymore); I do not have the time or energy for that anymore. If I were to get divorced now or in my 50s, I'd screwed; my golden years will be ANYTHING but! I have to think about these things as I approach this issue.

As I've said before, I am NOT afraid of taking risks; if I were, I wouldn't own & ride two motorcycles! As much as I love them, they can be dangerous; while the danger can be reduced, it's always there. The next ride I take could be my last; when I swing my leg over the bike, I tacitly ACCEPT this risk. Accepting risk is not a problem for me. My feeling is that, when God wants to call me home, I'm OUT of here-end of story; it doesn't matter if He takes me in my sleep, via heart attack, bike accident, or some other way; when He wants me Home, I'll be out of this wretched world-yes!

Even though I may not be afraid of risk; even though I may not be afraid of death; there are certain risks I will NOT take; there are certain risks that are just reckless, foolish, and stupid to consider. One of these would be riding a motorcycle drunk, or even riding while having had one drink. Another foolish gamble would entail taking one's life savings, and plunking them down on the Roulette table in Vegas. I could go on, but you get my point; some risks are best avoided. Unfortunately, thanks to feminism and its impact on divorce laws, marriage is a risk that men should avoid, because if anything goes wrong, the man's life is OVER; he is ruined.

Having said all that, I think it is of utmost importance that women & men who are willing to talk and be reasonable (I DO try to be, believe it or not!) to get together, and start the long, awkward process to repairing the damage. While we all may have many things to say about feminism and its deleterious impact on us all, I think we can agree on one thing: God did NOT intend for us to live this way!! Our Father wanted men & women to be gifts & blessings to one another, not to be enemies. I don't know of a sane person who DOES want this sorry mess that we have. Cleaning up the mess will take a long time, because it took a long time for things to GET this messed up in the first place.

I'm hungry, so I'm going to eat now. Have a good night, Anna, and God bless you. May God help us all to clean up the mess we have; goodness knows' we're going to NEED His help...

MarkyMark

Lillian the Ponderer said...

Your post was the subject of some discussion over dinner last night. Both my husband and I found like this young man that suitable people were hard to find. Neither of us really "dated" much. We both wanted something more than most members of the opposite sex offer these days - True faith a real man/woman that is not afraid of their masculinity/femininity, traditional values and true companionship - not just passion.

The result: A happy marriage (ok only 1 1/2 months in so far), agreed values but also we both "waited" a long time - I was 30 and he 44. People talk about women delaying marriage and child-birth for their careers and stuff, but many of us delay due to necessity and I for one am glad I didn't just marry for the sake of being married or I would have been miserable, I waited for the right man.

Anonymous said...

I have to thank markymark for his honest & forthright comments. He does bring up many, many good points. There is a severe distrust between the sexes, & I do blame feminism for that. It also made me sad to read of the lonliness he described. And as to the ugly divorce issues...oh my. I have an extended family member who had his clock cleaned by his ex, & she still petitions for more. On the other hand, I have a friend (female) who recently suffered the same thing with her ex. Why is it always the one who initiates the divorce, seems to get the most?.....sigh.

Markymark, I pray you find someone to share your life with. I know you said you really can't risk it, & you brought up your age, etc. Absent that, I hope that you'll experience a measure of contentment with your present circumstance. God's blessing!

Brenda

Catherine R. said...

This whole phenomenon is funny because it is surely rooted in feminism yet it leaves women with the unpleasant consequences. I have seen many many attractive women frustrated because of little boys in 37 year old's bodies, unwilling and unable to be husband material. It sounds like this guy who wrote to you is a little bitter. In a way, who can blame him? My initial reaction to this post was to offer the suggestion that people of faith can turn this tide. But from what I've seen, sadly, people of faith are all to quick to mimic the trends of secular culture. It is a big problem. The danger is becoming hopelessly cynical, something I personally struggled against before I met my husband. I was "friends" with a guy who was leading me on terribly. Granted, in my desperation it took me a while to tell him to stop calling me, which I did.

There is an interesting article (which I posted on my blog actually under the culture category "twelve year olds in men's bodies") that talks extensively about the ever increasing trend of immature men. I have no problem with calling them immature, either. Just because they can hold a decent job doesn't mean they don't twiddle away the hours playing video games and "hanging out" until the end of time. From what I understand about Jewish culture, a male is not considered a man until he gets married. It seems the problem with many men today is that it doesn't bother them if people think they are boyish...it just gives them an excuse to play with toys and make potty jokes over their beer forever. I don't know what the answer is exactly, but this is a real problem that can easily make any single person painfully cynical. I would say the hope is in examining our attitudes and praying that God can change our hearts to be people who want His way more than the world's. Walking with God is more radical than most of us think...it is very very different from the world.

Karen said...

I think you just need a lot of faith. Faith in yourself, faith in the Lord to keep you together, and faith in the sanctity of marriage. As long as you are both fully committed (divorce is not an option to either of you or is only an option in extreme circumstances that you both pray never happen) then I think you have a very good chance.

Divorce rates are high, but I think among people who truly believe in commitment and family, and aren't just marrying for money and understand that a marriage is supposed to be WORK sometimes, I believe the divorce rates are much lower.

You can't expect the other person to save, complete, or change your life. You can't expect them to be perfect and do everything and be your ideal dream spouse. You just have to love them.

Ewokgirl said...

After reading Markymark's response, I'm starting to understand all this a little better. Yes, there are always risks in relationships. Everyone understands that, but how do you minimize risk?

When I was younger and unmarried, I used to ask married people how they knew they'd found the right person. The answer was always the same: They just knew.

When I was in college, I dated a certain guy from my sophomore year through to my senior year. Everyone assumed we'd get married. I assumed that. I think even he assumed it, yet he was reluctant to ask me, but he couldn't articulate why. Eventually he broke up with me because he just couldn't see getting married. I was pretty devastated because well, I figured that I just knew he was The One.

After that relationship ended, I grew unbelievably frustrated with the stock answer that I'd just know when the right man came along. A dear friend of mine was also battling this frustration because like me, she'd been in a relationship where she thought she just knew.

When I did finally meet the man who would become my husband, I found that people were correct in saying that I'd just know, but that's a really awful way to try to articulate it to others. My relationship with my now-husband was so much better than the very good relationship I'd had with that other guy. (That's part of why it's so deceptive; a relationship can be a good one with a great person, yet still not be the right person.)

So, what was the difference? Peace. I had 100% peace with the relationship. There were no little red flags anywhere in our relationship. There were a few minor red flags in that previous relationship, yet I always ignored them because they were minor. (Things such as liking each other's friends and family just fine, but never being really completely comfortable with them, if that makes sense.)

Also, when I prayed about my relationship with my now-husband, I never got any sense from God that I shouldn't be with him. In fact, my prayers had changed from, "Please have him ask me to marry him!" (prayer often said about the guy from college) to, "Please lead us and let us know if marriage is not the right thing." Big difference. The first prayer, I think, was borne of that competition to get engaged I'd mentioned in my first comment. The second was borne of a maturity to want to make good, lasting decisions in my life.

We'll be married 10 years this summer. Could our marriage end at some point? Sure, I suppose it could if either of us lets sin enter our lives and stay there. Or if we fail to love, honor, and have respect for one another. Or if we shove the Lord to the side to focus on selfish desires (but that goes back to the first one about sin...)

But you know what? Some risks are worth taking. Don't marry anyone with whom you do not have a complete sense of peace from the Lord. Those little red flags that crop up in a relationship are there for a reason. Don't ignore them.

Catherine R. said...

I feel the need to address Mark. I just want to say Mark, I understand why you feel the way you do. But, the thoughts that you expressed are a little depressing and paranoid. You said you don't hate women but it sounds like you are on the verge or have been in the past. Again, I see where you're coming from but, do you really feel that it's smart to tell all the men you know not to get married? I saw that link on your page called "Dump your wife now". For someone who believes that what God says is true (it sounds like maybe you do) living a life of faith is not necessarily safe or easy. Also, it sounds like you value the here and now more than eternity. Do you believe in eternity? If so, you must know that some prominant figures in the bible suffered fates much worse than eating dog food because they knew they were only visiting this planet.

Buffy said...

I don't think people are scared of marriage, I think they are scared of divorce because it appears to be so prevalent these days. Also young men are told to sow their wild oats in their twenties. Actually I think a lot of men are just looking to settle down but it goes against what modern society is telling them.

Soarer GT said...

I'm the 26-yo man whose comment is the subject of this post. It's been a while since I've checked up on this blog (best of luck on the wedding, Anna!) and it was interesting, to say the least, to see my words again in this post. Even more interesting, are some of the comments that have been made.

@MarkyMark:
I appreciate the compliment. Being recognized by an esteemed MRA blogger was pretty cool.

@terry and kelly
"It will take as many more more marriages staying together to change the tide". You're right about that. Best of luck to you.

@catherine r.:
Yeah, I guess I am a bit bitter, from time to time. Truth be told though, I've decided there's no point in being bitter, and have decided to embrace the bachelor lifestyle. I must admit, I think my recent discovery of Tom Leykis kind of pushed me over into full acceptance of it (the man's a bit of a jerk, but as much as I hate to say it, he's right). Call me immature, but I frankly don't care anymore. I can more than provide for myself, and I've realized that I don't need a wife (and neither does any woman need me). I'm happy enough taking care of my career, my family, and friends. Maybe one day I'll have kids, but I might outsource the process like gay couples do (egg donor, surrogate mother, etc.). It'll be a while before I can afford that though, and in the back of my head, I still somehow believe that a complete nuclear family is best, so who knows?


@anonymous on Feb 21 (in between apple cider mama and alexandra's posts):
I appreciate the advice, but no offense, I'm an atheist (probably the only one who has ever posted here). I have no intention of "working the church". Besides, most of those church girls wind up at the clubs later on Sat. and Fri. night anyway.
I'm about completely sure you'll look at my lack of faith and say "Ha!, that's the problem!", but I've noticed that religious guys deal with pretty much the same issues I do, whether or not they date the churchy ones.


@all:
To put it succinctly, I wish you all great luck in your marriages and relationships, but I'm not holding my breath over the marriage issue. I've moved on.

MarkyMark said...

Catherine R,

I've wanted to respond to your comments for quite some time, but I felt it was best to let some time pass before doing so. I've copied & pasted your comments here, and I'll intersperse my thoughts amongst yours. CR=you, whereas MM=me, since I haven't figured out how to do the italics, bolding, etc. in the comment window.

---------

CR-I feel the need to address Mark. I just want to say Mark, I understand why you feel the way you do. But, the thoughts that you expressed are a little depressing and paranoid. You said you don't hate women but it sounds like you are on the verge or have been in the past.

MM-Ma'am, I'm not depressed or paranoid; I'm just realistic. I use the eyes, ears, and brain that God gave me; I observe the world, seeking to understand how it works; I then take my observations and try to make sense of them. At least that's how men do it; we examine things, and using our logic, attempt to draw the right conclusions about what we've seen & heard.

That said, let's LOOK at what I've observed, ok? I've observed an outrageously high divorce rate. I've observed women filing most of those divorces. They have filed them not for good reasons, i.e. reasons most humans would understand as being sound for divorcing someone, e.g. adultery, drug/alcohol abuse, abandonment, et al; no, women divorce perfectly good men because they were bored; she said that they'd 'grown apart', whatever THAT means; she didn't love him anymore. I could go on, but you get my point. I've observed women going out of their way to DESTROY the man they vowed to 'have and to hold, love, cherish, etc.' when it's time to file for divorce. I've seen the books written for women on how to do this. Uh, even if your ex WAS a jerk, what about MORALS, Darlin', hmmm?

Depending on whose numbers you believe, women file 60%-90% of the divorces out there. Feminist groups, i.e. groups speaking for women, admit to the 90% figure. Let's not use their numbers though, since feminazis are liars. Let's use a mainstream source, ok? The Discovery Health Channel's website has an article, "Eleven Myths about Divorce". Could we agree that Discovery Health is a good, sound source to use? I think it'll do. Anyway, look down at the bottom (I believe it's point #10; I haven't been there in a while), and it'll say that women file for divorce 2/3 of the time. Ergo, the chances are good that my beloved WILL divorce me. It's not a question of if; it's a question of WHEN. Sorry, Ma'am, but paranoia has nothing to do with the conclusions I have drawn; I simply viewed the EVIDENCE, and I concluded that marriage is a CRAP DEAL FOR MEN-end of story.

CR-Again, I see where you're coming from but, do you really feel that it's smart to tell all the men you know not to get married?

MM-Yes, as a matter of fact, I do think that it's smart to tell my brothers to avoid marriage! If I didn't, I wouldn't engage in that now, would I?

I think I see where you're going with this, though. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that what I suggest is bad for the survival of our society and nation. You know what? You're right! On a macro level, what I'm urging my brothers to do will seal our nation's fate, and will lead to its doom.

To me, what I and my brothers are doing is analogous to how folks are behaving in this incipient recession. In a recession or depression, folks cut back spending; anything that they don't absolutely positively need does not get purchased. On a micro or individual level, this makes sense, since the next job to be cut may be YOURS.

However, on a macro or collective basis, this is bad for the nation as a whole. With 2/3 of economic activity driven by consumer spending, when millions of micro decisions to cut spending ripple through the system, the economy slows even more, making the situation worse! What's good to do on an individual level is bad on the collective level.

Men, by walking away from women & marriage, are making a decision that, on an individual level, makes sense. If we don't get married or have serious entanglements with women, then we cannot get caught up in the meat grinder of a system that family court is. Since women will be rewarded for divorcing their husbands, more of them do.

But, by walking away from women and marriage, we are sealing the fate for America's downfall. A nation is only as strong as its families; if we're not having any, then that's not helping the nation. I realize that.

The Muslims will take over for one simple reason: they're having babies like rabbits! In a generation or so, they'll reach critical mass (demographically speaking), thus comprising the majority population. When they do, they'll call the shots.

That said, we're too far gone to save; our nation long ago passed the point of no return to the values, faith, beliefs, i.e. the culture, that made us great. The exigencies of time & space will not permit me to do justice to this topic, so I shall simply refer you to another site that will; it's on my blog's link list (it's at the top, as a matter of fact), and you'll see that America is too far gone. Please visit: www.ourcivilisation.com, hosted by Philip Atkinson. He shows us WHY the Bible is right, and that we are indeed living in the Last Days.

Let me also say this: any nation that's going to bash, trash, impugn, imprison, vilify, punish, and cheat men does not DESERVE to survive! Any nation that makes it so punitive for me to marry & have children can go visit the ash heap of history, as far as I'm concerned.

I remember how, as a Boy Scout, I carried the American flag for the local, Fourth of July Bicentennial parade. I was SO PROUD to march at the head of our troop, carrying our Stars & Stripes! I can't put into words how I felt that day; it was the highlight of my life.

However, I no longer feel the same way about our nation. I would no longer fight & die for her as I once would have (I am a Navy vet, BTW). Why would I when I'm a 2nd class citizen? Why would I when, if a woman points her finger at me, I can be hauled off to jail in the middle of the night, a la Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia? Why did we, pray tell me, fight WWII? Why did we fight the Cold War? Why indeed, when we have turned out JUST LIKE OUR FORMER ADVERSARIES? Care to take a stab at that, Ma'am?

CR-I saw that link on your page called "Dump your wife now". For someone who believes that what God says is true (it sounds like maybe you do) living a life of faith is not necessarily safe or easy.

MM-You've brought up a couple of different points, which I'll address one at a time: my link list, and living a life of faith.

Just because I have link to someone's site does NOT mean I agree with everything they say; in fact, I most likely do not. What it does mean is that I've found some useful things on their pages, and I visit them regularly, nothing more.

As for living a life of faith, I'll say this: living a life of faith is one thing; living a life of stupidity, foolishness, and recklessness is something else! Marrying a woman in modern America falls into the latter category. I'm too harsh, you say? Dig THIS...

You might want to check out this site: www.realfamilylaw.com. Lisa Scott, a family law attorney, hosts the site. She has many articles about what modern divorce and domestic violence law have done to marriage, family, and relationships. In one of her articles, she says THIS: any man who's not afraid of having a relationship with an American woman HAS NOT BEEN PAYING ATTENTION (emphasis mine)! Please keep in mind that a woman said this, ok?

CR-Also, it sounds like you value the here and now more than eternity. Do you believe in eternity? If so, you must know that some prominent figures in the bible suffered fates much worse than eating dog food because they knew they were only visiting this planet.

MM-I don't obsess over the here & now; in fact, I can't WAIT to leave this wretched world! That said, I have to 'pass through' as the old hymn says, and that's going to take a while. While I'm here, I'd like to make the best of it, thank you very much. Would you care to show me the Bible verse that says it's not ok for me to do so? Would you point out the Bible verse that says I cannot and must not enjoy my time here? Didn't think so...

And yes, I do know of some of the giants of the Faith of whom you spoke. I know of Joseph, and how his brothers sold him into slavery; how he was falsely accused of rape by Potiphar's wife; how he spent years in the dungeon; I know that whole story.

I know of Jeremiah, the weeping prophet. I know how God told him to chastise the people; to tell them that God was not happy with them; that God would judge them for their evil deeds; I know how he was beaten and stoned-nice gesture of gratitude, huh? I know how Jeremiah didn't win ONE CONVERT during his ministry-not one! He sure would be a giant in today's worldly Christianity where numbers are everything. That's another rant...

I know how Paul, after his conversion, was beaten, stoned, and jailed because he earnestly tried to spread the faith throughout what was then the known world. I remember the Bible story of him & his buddies singing praises to God while in jail.

Ma'am, I could go on, but I think you get my point. I do know a thing or two about the Bible. I should; I spent a couple of years in Bible college! Unfortunately, there was a scandal amongst the college & church leadership, and I left as a result.

It wasn't the fact that they'd sinned that bothered me. The Bible says in Rom. 3:12 that there's NONE that doeth good, no not one; we're all sinners-myself included. No, what bothered me was the total UNWILLINGNESS to even ACKNOWLEDGE that wrongdoing had been done, let alone make any needed apologies, restitution, or seeking of forgiveness. THAT is what angered me! That is why I left.

God never brought the church or college down, either. I'm sorry, but God has some explaining to do about that! I seem to recall a verse in Proverbs saying that a good name is rather to be chosen than great riches-hmmmm. You'll no doubt say I'm blaspheming God, being stiff necked, etc. You know what? You'd be right! Sorry Darlin', but that's how I feel.

I may not get much of a reward when I get to Heaven, but I don't care. Having a lean-to up there will be enough for me. All that matters is that I'll be there.

I'm out of here. I've gone on far longer than I intended to. I'm not paranoid or afraid when I say that marriage is a bad deal for men; I'm simply being realistic, based on the EVIDENCE I see out there. I'm not relying on 'that superior way of knowing' that you gals do; I'm relying on cold, hard facts & logic; I'm relying on my eyes, my ears, and my brain. God gave 'em to me for a reason, and I intend to use them. If you want to get after someone, go after your 'sisters' who gave you feminism and the destruction it left in its wake! That is all. Good night.

MarkyMark

MarkyMark said...

To Karen & Ewokgirl,

I'm not going to cut & paste your comments as I did with Catherine R's. Since you both made similar points, I'll respond to both of you.

You spoke of hoping I meet someone nice & decent. While that would be pleasing, it's not going to happen. There are a couple of reasons why. One is meeting anyone suitable to begin with; available women my age or close to it are damaged goods, and I will show why later. Two, when women find out that I've never been married, they think I'm a bad risk. I'll discuss both in more detail now...

I said that available women my age are damaged goods; they are not suitable for a relationship, let alone marriage. Here's why: the women available to me. From where I sit, there are four types of women available to me: 1) used up, over the hill divorcees; 2) singe mothers whose birth canals have seen more traffic than the FDR Drive during rush hour; 3) single, feminist minded career women; and 4) church ladies who aren't mentally, emotionally, or spiritually available.

The women falling into categories one & two overlap somewhat. They both went after jerks & bad boys their whole lives. The divorcees thought that they could tame Mr. Jerk with their love; they thought that they could change the man they married. Evidently, no one ever told these women that leopards do not change their spots, nor do jerks all of a sudden become gentlemen. When this happens, they are angry, and it's MEN'S FAULT, damn it! These women hate all men, and they blame us for everything that's wrong in their lives. That's hardly a good attitude to have towards someone if you want a relationship with that person now, is it? Furthermore, why would I, as a man, want to INVOLVE myself with someone having that sort of toxic attitude towards me as a man?

Other divorcees bang bad boys for decades-until their looks & bodies start to fade, that is. Then it's time to find a sucker, er nice guy, er gentleman, er husband! Unfortunately for Mr. Gentleman, the woman never truly loves him. Truth be told, she STILL loves, adores, and wants to sleep with the bad boys who always turned her on; indeed, she will likely cheat on Mr. Gentleman while married to him, since nice guys are boring losers! After a certain point & time, Ms. Divorcee also knows that the jerks & bad boys she adores no longer want her, so a gal's gotta do what a gal's gotta do, right? So, she marries Mr. Gentleman. Unfortunately for him, she'll grow bored with bored with him, divorce him some years later, and ruin his life. Uh, thanks but no thanks...

The single mothers my age are no different, other than the fact that they weren't married; if they were, they were divorced long ago, having spent their entire adult lives raising their children and partying like a single woman in her 20s. Like the divorced women above, these women are single mothers because they made a BAD CHOICE in men; sorry, but for me, it's just that simple. They slept with every bad boy who turned her on through the years, then they were surprised when they didn't stick around when she either got older or had the kid! What did she expect?! As Warner Wolfe would say, "Come on!!!" Uh, Darlin', jerks are jerks for a REASON, a fact that you somehow overlooked. Hello?!?! Is ANYONE home?!

The problem with the women in categories one & two is this: unlike our wise, beloved Anna, they never learned their lesson; they never figured out that dating a jerk will ALWAYS bring the same result-lots of heartache & pain; unlike Anna, they never figured out what is hopelessly elementary and logical to us men: to wit, if you want different results in anything, then you have to utilize a different approach-duh! Again, as a man, this is so utterly obvious, but 99.9999% of the women out there don't seem to grasp this simple concept; they cannot figure out this little thing called cause & effect.

These women have also always thought that guys who are gentlemen are losers; they always thought that we are weak, boring, and not exciting; the women of categories one & two hold us in contempt. A majority of the women available to me have copulated & cavorted with tens or even HUNDREDS of jerks over the years, and they have incurred massive mental, emotional, and spiritual damage as a result; they often have nasty STDs and STIs as well-nice! I can see it in their eyes & faces; shoot, I can FEEL their hatred & contempt for men! Even if I've never talked with a woman before, I can ALWAYS tell if she's divorced-always! There is something about them that is different, almost as if their mental, emotional, and spiritual scars are VISIBLE for the world to see. I know myself well enough to know that, for many reasons, such women aren't for me; I do not want them.

Unfortunately, these women never, ever, ever admitted to themselves or others that they CHOSE these men; they never took RESPONSIBILITY for their choices and actions-never! In relationships, women have the ultimate power; they have the FINAL WORD. Unless they give their consent, the relationship either will not take place ; if it's ongoing, then it will NOT move forward. Sorry, but no one FORCED these women to choose the men that they did; no one held a gun to their heads. Because of their long track records of exhibiting poor judgment and making obviously poor choices, such a woman is not someone I want in my life. Because the of DAMAGE these women have received, they are wholly unsuitable for me-wholly unsuitable. I would say that 99% of the women available to me fall into categories one & two.

That takes us to category three, the career chick. Rather than ask what's wrong with a career chick, the better question to ask is this: what is NOT wrong with them?! One, they're aggressive, driven, and competitive; they are faux men with vaginas-not a pretty sight for someone who prefers feminine women-you know, old fashioned, honest to goodness LADIES! They are not feminine creatures at all. Two, these career chicks have, like their counterparts in categories one & two, copulated & cavorted with hundreds of men by the time they decide to marry, which is typically in their thirties-yuck! They've had more pricks than a barroom dartboard. Three, most career gals have advanced degrees; they've spent much of their lives in our PC universities, so they're SOLIDLY STEEPED in feminism and all its tenets. Feminists hate men, and so do a vast majority of these women. Again, as a man, WHY would I want to spend time with someone who harbors hatred, fear, and suspicion of me, simply for being a man? Sorry, but the fact that I was born a man was kinda out of my hands; does that ever register with these career chicks? Four, because of their natures and inculcated attitudes (very feminist oriented), they're OBSESSED with fairness; they will go out of their way to make sure I do my 'fair share' of stuff at home-she won't let ME oppress her in our marriage, damn it! That's the attitude too, and I find it disgusting and revolting, not to mention nonsensical. Finally, career women always have to be right; they'll dig in their heels, and fight me tooth & nail, regardless of how valid my points are-simply because I'm a man. As a man, I'm inferior, therefore I'm wrong. It doesn't matter whether it's a trivial matter under discussion, or if it's something more serious; the attitude is the same-mainly, because I'm a man, I'm always wrong, and she's always right. Her thoughts, points, wants needs, desires, etc. matter, and mine do not; shoot, the fact that I might even HAVE any never crosses her mind! For the typical career chick, it's ALL about her. Sorry, but I deserve better than that! Sorry, but I won't put UP with that, either. Either a woman can treat me with the kindness, honor, dignity, and respect that I deserve as a fellow human being, or she can get lost! It's that simple.

That leaves the devoted church ladies who are in their thirties & forties. I've known some of these ladies. They are so WRAPPED UP in the church, their pastor, et al that they are not emotionally available. Physically, they may be available; they are single, which means they're not taken. However, they do not have the mental & emotional wherewithal to commit to a long term relationship. They over spiritualize EVERYTHING! As a man, if I do not give exactly the right answers to their arcane questions about how I'd handle a situation requiring my pastor's counsel, then I'm not good enough for them. If I do not give exactly the answer they're looking for in their arcane inquiries, then I'm off their list-end of story.

These women are also picky. I'm not talking about being SENSIBLY SELECTIVE; I'm talking about seeking PERFECTION in a man. Sorry, but I have no hope & prayer of offering that to anyone; I'm human, after all, and I have the failings that come along with my humanity. Try as I might, I forever fall short of perfection; try as I might, my humanity keeps getting in the way-duh! The only human who's ever been perfect was God's Son, Jesus Christ. I again refer you to Romans 3:10 and 3:12; those verses make it abundantly clear that we cannot and will not achieve perfection, and that's that.

I'll tell you a little story of a church lady I knew personally. She was on staff at the Bible college I attended; it's the same one my former pastor attended a few years before me. He asked this gal, who I'll call Dana, out for a date. They may have even dated briefly; I can't remember now, some 15 years later. I do know that they were classmates; I do know that they were close in age. My former pastor then asked out someone else, ultimately marrying her and having eight children with her. His wife, Lynn (not her real name), is as fine a LADY as I have ever met; never will you meet a finer, more GODLY example of femininity in this world! She can both scold you and charm the pants off you at the same time... :) I don't know how she does that, but she does. I do know that she is a true, Proverbs 31 woman, and as such, she is a jewel.

Dana, the lady my former pastor had dated in college, was still single when I got there a few years later. Dana was on staff at the Bible college when I got there. One of the guys in my ministry asked her out, but she blew him off. My buddy, who I'll call Kurt, though imperfect as we all are, was a kind, thoughtful, Godly man; he was also ruggedly handsome, a la actor Dolph Lundgren. He had the whole package; he was awesome on the inside & outside. Dana was so picky by then that she wouldn't even GO OUT with Kurt one time-not one time did she give him a chance! If she'd wanted to find a husband, she could have; Dana was a pretty gal who had NO PROBLEM catching the eyes of men when I knew her 15 years ago. If Dana had wanted to marry someone, then she could have; there was NO SHORTAGE OF WILLING SUITORS.

BTW, when I logged on to the Bible college's website, I saw that Dana was still on staff there; I also saw that she's still single. With first hand knowledge of the experiences of both my former pastor & my buddy Kurt, I was NOT surprised to see this. Dana is the quintessential 'church lady', is an example of the only other woman available to me.

I told you all that to tell you this: at my age, 46, I have NO PRAYER WHATSOEVER of meeting someone decent-none! I'd be honored and blessed to find a lady like Anna or her readers. Women like you all are RARE; you all are so rare that gold, a scarce, precious metal, is as plentiful as sand on a beach in comparison! The Bible, where it discusses the virtuous woman in Proverbs 31, says that such a woman is FAR more valuable than rubies. That says it all right there.

I also noticed something else; I noticed a pattern quickly emerge amongst the fine ladies here: you were taken off the market early (most if not all the ladies here were married before reaching 30 years of age, and with good reason), and you're STAYING off the market. I'll cite Anna's example once again, though the same could apply to any one of her fine readers too. Anna is 24-25 years old, right? She'll soon be married. Her pattern follows the pattern of all the other fine ladies here; the same pattern holds true to those other fine ladies who aren't readers of this blog. Any guy with functional eyesight and two brain cells knocking together will quickly deduce the same; he'll quickly figure out that fine ladies are rare, and that they go off the market fast; once off, they stay off. Their husbands aren't fools; they know that they've got a good woman on their hands, and they're keeping her to themselves-can't say I blame 'em, either. Anna's man wasted NO TIME seeking her hand in marriage now, did he? That is the pattern I've observed.

IOW, there aren't enough good ladies to go around. Even years ago, before our culture had taken a swan dive into the sewer, there weren't enough good women to go around. With the advent and glorification of feminism and the empowered, slut lifestyle, there are even FEWER of what was rare to begin with: a good, Godly woman. Nowadays, the vast majority of women think that the characters on "Desperate Housewives" or "Sex and the City" are the example she is to follow; the characters of these wretched shows now represent the paragon of 21st century femininity. Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan, and Britney Spears are the examples they emulate, and emulate them they do-sad.

What does this boil down to? What does this mean to me, as a man? Let me put it this way: I have no chance of meeting someone decent-none. If I were 26 vs. 46, I'd have little or no chance of meeting a good LADY, simply because there aren't enough to go around. Those in existence are snapped up & married before they hit 30. If I were a 26 year old man, my chances of meeting a good, Godly woman would fall somewhere between slim & none, and slim's on his way OUT the door! The bottom line is this: as a 46 year old man, I have no prayer of meeting, let alone dating or marrying a good lady. For me, she doesn't exist; for me, it's just that simple.

I almost forgot about the OTHER factor working against me: the fact that I'm 46 and never been married works against me, big time. Even if we ignore the fact that good women are off the market; even if we ignore the fact that the available women are unsuitable for me; there is the factor that, as a 46 year old, never married man, I'm PERSONA NON GRATA among the women available to me; they don't want me anyway!! Any man who's 35-40 or older who's never been married has run into this. Because we've never been married, we're seen as undesirable, if not untouchable, a la untouchable as the Hindus would think. A man who's been married and divorced once or twice by 40 is seen as FAR more desirable than someone like me who's the same age and never been married. Women out there (I'm talking the ones AVAILABLE to me now) will not touch me with a ten foot pole because I'm 46 and never been married. So, even if I WANTED a divorcee, older single mother, career chick, or church lady, they do NOT want me. As far as they're concerned, I'm an untouchable, a leper; I'm UNTERMENCHEN, as far as they're concerned.

For me, what it all boils down to is this: I have no prayer of meeting a good woman, and I long ago accepted the fact that I'll spend my life alone. When looking at the women available to me, all I can do is shake my head in disgust, and say, "Uh, no thanks! If it comes to choosing between these women vs. remaining single, I think I'll be better off single..." Then again, they don't want me either, since I'm 46 and never married. It looks like I shall be single for the foreseeable future, and it looks like that will not change.

Don't feel sorry for me though. For a variety of reasons, I'm not only content to remain single; I'm happy to be single! I have a good life; I do what I want, when I want, and how I want. Best of all, I don't have to worry about coming home to some nagging harpy, someone who seemingly delights in making my life as miserable as she can. I not have to worry about her divorcing me because I didn't understand her emotional needs as a woman, needs she never told me about or gave me a chance to meet; I do not have to worry about her divorcing me because we 'grew apart'; I do not have to worry about her divorcing me because she does not love me anymore; since I'm not married, I cannot be divorced. I do not have to worry about the probable divorce that'll likely result if I do marry one of the women available to me; then again, I don't have to worry about the ruination that'll follow the divorce. Between the state of the world, our culture, and the insane, anti-man divorce laws, I am better off. Thank you, and I hope that this answers all questions & comments. Good night...

MarkyMark

Anna S said...

Mark,

I could write a book in response to your post (some of the points you raise are valid, some can be argued, in my opinion...), but since time just doesn't allow right now, I'll say only this: I'm not 24 or 25. I'm 22. ;-)

MarkyMark said...

Anna,

I stand corrected on your age; sorry about the faux pas. That said, the basic point (which prompted me to bring it up in to begin with) stands: to wit, that the few good women out there, the real LADIES of the world (of which you are one) go off the market early, and that there aren't enough to go around. That point stands.

Please also try to keep in mind that I'm an American, and that my comments are predicated on that as a frame of reference. Why is this important? One, Israel's laws are different from ours. Two, the culture is different from ours. These two factors mean that what's true for me as an American man may NOT apply to Israeli men.

As for responding to my posts, if you have the time & inclination, great; I'd love to hear your thoughts! However, I understand you're busy with your wedding, transitioning to a new life, etc.; you have plenty on your plate, and I understand that too.

If you like, you could respond to them later; I'll keep coming back, so I will see them. Or, perhaps you could make respond to me in parts; I've noticed that you've done it with other subjects, so that's always a thought too. If nothing else, if you ever run out of stuff to write about, I've given you PLENTY of grist for your mill-ha!!

As interesting as I would find your responses or those of the other ladies who frequent your blog, I don't come here for that. I have three main aims coming here: 1) remind myself that there ARE good women out there; 2) to learn some stuff from someone wise beyond her years; 3) it is my hope that my message gets read, understood, and carried by the ladies who come here to women THEY know. Lots of damage has been done to both men & women, thanks to the gender war, and I want to play a small part in finding a solution to the mess.

You and I didn't start the gender war, but we've BOTH had to live with its fallout. I want to show that we men didn't do what we did in a vacuum; we just didn't up & decide one day we're going to walk away from women, marriage, and family for laughs. No, there were definite stimuli, and we responded to that stimuli; as a man, I can show what these stimuli are, and why I've responded the way that I have.

I'm going to sign off. Please remember that I'm an American man, and I'm responding from that point of reference; I'm responding based on my experiences, observations, and my cultural point of reference. Of course, this will color my judgment & comments, but all I can do is give my perspective. Believe it or not, it is my fervent hope & prayer that men & women can be friends, allies, and companions once again. In time, I believe that this will happen, as the present situation isn't sustainable; for many reasons it isn't sustainable. Unfortunately, I don't think that I'll live to SEE things get better; after all, it took decades to get into our present mess, and it'll take decades to clean it up. By then, I'll be dead. That said, I cannot live my life as I wish it were, neither can I live it as I hope it will be. I have to live it on the basis of how it IS, based on the present reality in which I live; i.e. I have to play the game with the hand I've been dealt, and do the best I can. I hope that this clears things up, and I shall look forward to future visits here. Have a nice day...

MarkyMark

Anonymous said...

Hi, Mark. I'm not going to respond to everything you said, but I want to let you know I feel for you and I'll pray for you. Maybe I'm one of the gals who overspiritualize everything =D (tho I'm not even mid-twenties yet) but that's the only "help" I can think of to offer.

I really hope that you find real peace, whether as a permanent single or eventually in marriage.

I think it's important to remember that there's a person behind every statistic: even if only ten % of marriages stayed permanently together, that's thousands upon thousands of real people in beautiful marriages. AND I don't believe it's pure lottery about which side of the statistics one's marriage will fall into. I'm blessed to live in a fantastic, enormous community, where none of the families I know are divorced or would consider divorce. Every day I see dozens of examples of beautiful marriages, from a few months to 60 years old. Not everyone comes from perfect backgrounds, either; you might have called my mother "damaged goods" when she married my father, but they have a beautiful, beautiful, faithful marriage, and I'm so grateful.

Don't underestimate God!

I believe He has a special, loving plan for every person ever conceived, and what He wants for us is the best.

Love & prayers,
Mary